Saturday, May 16, 2009

Under No Child Left Behind (NCLB) mandate, Can every child receive an equitable education?

I must start by saying I was a person who thought NCLB was a good remedy to our problems with our educational system. After reading Andrew Rotherham's stance of the issue of Initiatives rescuing failing schools I was even more optimistic about (NCLB). Rotherham, I think, makes a good connection between NCLB and the earlier efforts of 1994, which required states to develop academic standards, test linked to standards and accountability (Noll, p117). He focuses on the main problem of the re-authorization plan was the accountability piece of the legislation. The language he states was "too vague and porous" (Noll, p.117). The states were not compliant and the government did not follow up on what the states weren't doing. In 2002 NCLB came into existence. Rotherham believes that NCLB has addressed the accountability issue by clarifying the criteria for improvement, specific indicators of success and common goals followed by consequences if goals are not reached (Noll, p.118). Rotherham though states in the past would just simply ignore or delay parts of the Federal Education Laws they didn't like (Noll, p.122).

Paul D. Houston has shown me a new perspective on the issue. Houston is against NCLB mandate and states that it is structurally weak (Noll, p.123) and has fundamental flaws (which he has convinced me exist). Houston lays out his seven deadly sins of NCLB (Noll, p. 124-129). In his seven sins Houston discusses: 1. Schools are not broken. 2. Testing of children 3. Ignoring realities of poverty 4. Use of fear and coercion. 5. Lacking clarity 6. Not consulting the experts 7. Undermining international competitiveness. What I like most about Houston's belief is not only does he do a good job at pointing out the short comings of NCLB, he offers a solution in his "New Agenda for education"(Noll, p. 126-127). In conclusion, I was in favor of No Child Left Behind and I thought if the government would give schools more money, then it would work. Houston has swayed me in the other direction. As long as the issues that have a direct effect on the poor i.e. lack of health care, issues that middle class and the wealthy don't have to deal with, Our educational system will never be able to provide an equitable education to all children (I believe). What do you think? And why?
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39 comments:

  1. J.K.MatherMay 17, 2009 at 10:56 AM

    I agree with Houston's response, in that there are many wholes in NCLB, especially with my teaching tract. I grew up with a sister with Special Needs, she was premature at birth and has had existing problems since then. In first grade, they told us she just didn't try and that she was lazy, but when she was tested, they found she had a significant learning disability. So we finally get her into high school, after many trials and tribulations, then they mandate that she has to take the OGT's before she gradautes, and then they won't allow many accomodations to the test, she can't do math, still can't to this day, and they wouldn't allow her to use a calculator, or get help from her Special Education teacher on the test. Being around her for those tests, was ridiculous, no child should be put through that much stress. Now, as a moderate/intensive special education teacher, they want my students to take that test, only part of that testing procedure is that 1% of that schools population can use an Alternate Assessment. If you have a school district with 500 students total only 5 kids can use an alternate assessment. So how do you tell Billy's mom that because you know he has dyslexia that has to take this test because Suzy, who is autistic needs an Alternate Assessment. Even though Suzy is non-verbal, and funcations at a level of a 2 month old child at 12 years old. There's so many wholes, I mean. Urban schools are hurting, they have no money, but then you can't help them with any money to give teach the children with proper educational techniques because they didn't score high enough on their testing, or we'll remove the only teachers they've ever known and trusted because there not doing their jobs in testing and accountability, so then you put in new teachers that the students have to begin to trust all over again.

    I feel that there is never going to be equitable education, because you can't please or help everyone, you can only do the best you can with what you've got. You can't fix something, you don't know anything about or have expereinced. Its like you can't sit in a Penthouse sweet in New York City and know what is going on with a Hog Farmer in Middle Ohio. Everyone learned different, thats the end of it, in my opnion you can't learn the same if everyone learns different.

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  2. jessicaMay 17, 2009 at 1:26 PM

    As educators I feel that we should be accountable for what we teach. I think that state standards are a positive thing as well. I also feel that measuring what a student learns over the course of a year is positive. This having been said, I think it is fair to no one to measure students the same way from Bay Village and Cleveland Public Schools. The vast difference between what the “haves” and “have-nots” has been exposed to is staggering.
    I have a nephew who is four years old, he knows his colors, numbers, can write his name, and knows his address and phone numbers and can count to 50. I could go on, but you get the picture. In Lorain City Schools, 80 percent of the Kinders are not ready to begin school. They are at a distinct disadvantage. I have worked with students who cannot identify the letter B in February. Let’s progress 3 years to the first standardized test. Children who have not been playing catch up are going to score higher, than those students I must first say that I feel accountability is a positive thing. I think that we as teachers need to be who begin their schools years far behind their peers.
    In my opinion part of the problem is that NCLB was crafted by politicians. At what point to we give credit to teachers to formulate policy. I do not feel that people who have not worked in education should be able to write educational policy. One of the principal authors of NCLB was Margaret Spellings, who was nominated to Secretary of Education in late 2004.Spellings, who holds a B.A. in political science from University of Houston, was the political director for Bush's first gubernatorial campaign in 1994, and later served as a senior advisor to Texas Gov. Bush during his term as 1995 to 2000. Before her association with George W. Bush, Spellings worked on an education reform commission under Texas Governor William P. Clements and as associate executive director for the Texas Association of School Boards. Prior to her nomination to be Education Secretary, Margaret Spellings worked for the Bush Administration as Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy. Margaret Spellings has never worked in a school system, and has no formal training in education. http://usliberals.about.com/od/education/i/NCLBProsCons.htm
    When I first learned about AYP, I thought finally something that will help students who are not performing at grade level, but the adequate yearly progress (AYP) formula is a highly inaccurate and arbitrary yardstick for measuring progress. The law sets predetermined benchmarks for students' proficiency without taking into account schools' starting points. Furthermore, its testing of students with disabilities and English language learners is neither valid nor reliable. http://www.aft.org/topics/nclb/index.htm
    The post by jjones speaks to the absurdity of testing special education students who have profound learning disabilities. I have a student who takes the alternative assessment. This alternative assessment simply tested my ability to fill out paper work and be creative. The underlying problem is this, my 8th grade student who reads at a first grade level must take an 8th grade test which is written in English. His primary language is Spanish. He was so frustrated that he did not fill out any of the extended response questions, and could not read the passage.
    I do not know what the answer is; I simply know that the high stakes test is inherently biased and wholly unfair.

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  3. jessicaMay 17, 2009 at 2:54 PM

    In the post above mine, jjones speaks to accomadations for testing, if the IEP is written correctly, kids can use calculators, have the test read to them... etc... however this is not much help. A child has to be labeled cognitively delayed even to be considered for alternative assessments, and they are considering raising the 1 percent exemption. I do think that it is very unfair. However, what is even more unfair, is the child who misses passing the OAT math or reading... by only a few points time and time again, and thereby does not graduate with a diploma. This is a reality in urban schools. The children that NCLB truly hurts are those in urban low income schools.

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  4. J.K.MatherMay 17, 2009 at 3:49 PM

    Jessica, I do agree in the standards as well, and adequate yearly progress. I remember when I was in high school, my chemeistry and physic's classes consisted of watching movies and just sitting there staring at each other. Which is hard is that when I went to college, I couldn't walk into one of those courses and expect to know anything and pass. That is where I agree that teachers should be accountable, for they teach. In urban schools it is phenominal, I completed a methods coursework semester at Lucas County Edu. Serv. Center and this inner city Toledo, and it was scary the amount of kids that don't even know how to write their names, and they could have been taught something.

    According to the ED.gov/nclb website, to back up what jessica had said, these is what the website states
    "Between 2002 and 2005 (latest data available)
    :–Fourth-grade reading proficiency increased by 21 percentage points
    –Fourth-grade mathematics proficiency increased by six percentage points
    –The black-white achievement gap in fourth-grade reading narrowed by eight percentage points
    –The black-white achievement gap in fourth-grade mathematics narrowed by 10 percentage points
    –The Hispanic-white achievement gap in fourth-grade reading narrowed by four percentage points
    –The Hispanic-white achievement gap in fourth-grade mathematics narrowed by four percentage points(Ohio Report Card)

    That is still not a lot, most definatley scary that there is still so much of a gap, even in 2005, which was already 4 years ago. It is scary that latest achievement gap improved by 4 percetenage points and how far apart was the gap, and who let it get that far.

    If any of you have ever done any work in an urban area, how have you seen changes over the last few years?

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  5. jessicaMay 17, 2009 at 3:55 PM

    It should be said, that just because you attend school in an urban district, you are not doomed to failure. Both of my kids are products of Lorain City, my son graduated with a 4.25 gpa, he passed his OGT, first try, no problem. My daughter has passed every OAT at the highest level, I always forget, advanced, accelerated? The difference is that as a family we value education. Government can't legislate equality. It simply penalizes those students who come from families that do not hold education as the most valuable asset.

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  6. KScottMay 17, 2009 at 7:22 PM

    Very pertinent and passionate comments. Thanks for sharing the outside resources; they definitely add perspective. Let's not leave Rotherham and Houston out of the discussion, though. And getting back to David's question, does the current policy fail to address all these other factors? Or is it just going about it the wrong way? Or is what Jessica says true: "Government can't legislate equality"? It has obviously tried over the course of our history...has it been successful? (It sounds as if most of you don't feel it has been in the present case.) If the government can't legislate equity in education...how do we achieve it?

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  7. David WatsonMay 18, 2009 at 6:41 AM

    I just wanted to clarify that I was thinking there is a difference between equitable and equal. i.e. two people are going to have a race. One person has a history of racing and being a good athlete. The other person has never run a race before and walks with a slight limp. The two are to be at the starting line at the same time, they both have to run 40 yards, they are both given the same shoes, socks and uniform to wear. This to me is an example of equal but not equitable.

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  8. Jen BMay 18, 2009 at 7:42 AM

    equitable: "Marked by equity; impartially just, fair, and REASONABLE.
    equal: "Having the same rights."

    Fair, to me, means giving everyone what they need. Fair is not giving everyone the same. The federal government can try to regulate by using the same standards for all and it may seem like a good idea, but it will never work because no district, student, teacher, community, school or family will ever be exactly the same.

    David, I agree with you and Houston that until we can fix the problems of poverty, one parent families, teenage pregnancy, health care, access to early intervention/preschool, drug and alcohol addiction, gangs, economy, etc.... we will never be able to solve the education issues. Teachers cannot miraculously make these things disappear in the classroom.

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  9. Katherine McGrawMay 18, 2009 at 10:54 AM

    I think that standards are a good thing to a certain extent, and that the government is attempting to do a good thing by holding schools accountable for educating students and “establishing clear criteria for improvement, specific indicators of success, and common goals” (Noll, 118). I agree with Rotherman when he said, “in the end it is simply irresponsible to continue pouring resources into systems that we know are failing without establishing clear benchmarks for their improvement and consequences if they do not reach them” (Noll, 118).

    However, it is obvious based on Houston’s “Seven Deadly Sins of NCLB” that some tweaking is needed. Even Houston believed that “setting standards can be useful, but only if standards do not lead to standardization” (Noll, 125). Some of the major problems seem to have to do with the idea of fair and equal that everyone is talking about. I agree with both Jessica’s comments above that some accommodations need to be made for special needs children. I don’t think you can even apply standards of any kind to special needs students, as they will operate at their own pace and ability. Some students are in need of learning more practical day-to-day tasks, while others may be capable of learning some levels of the traditional schooling subjects, it just depends on their disability. It is amazing to me how the brain works with the mentally handicapped, in some areas they can amaze you and in others they don’t make any progress. My brother-in-law in mentally handicapped and really took to history in school, and with the appropriate help in reading it and testing he could do very well, while math and science he could never seem to get. So, special education to me is almost outside the realm of any standards that can be set.

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  10. Katherine McGrawMay 18, 2009 at 11:11 AM

    In response to Jen’s comment about fairness and equality, I agree that not all students have the same needs, so those needs cannot be standardized. I think this gets in to the main goal of NCLB, which is leaving behind poor or disadvantaged students, mainly in urban communities. Getting back to David’s question, I do not think that government can overcome the other factors affecting disadvantaged children (such as Jen’s list). For example, I have a cousin and his wife with two unplanned pregnancies (not sure how you do that), she does not work and he makes very little money. Their low income qualifies them to begin sending their kids to Head Start preschool at an early age for free, and they aren’t doing it. It makes me wonder how many families out there just don’t value education and make it a priority for their kids. So, there are programs in place now to help disadvantaged children catch up prior to kindergarten. I don’t know if my example is common or not, but aside from filling out the paperwork and taking the kids to and from the preschool, what more could the government do? I’m just not sure I believe that any government policy can overcome many of the disadvantages these children face.

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  11. Jen BMay 18, 2009 at 1:15 PM

    Houston quotes: "Restore a sense of trust and mutual support." (p. 127)
    "Construct a system that supports their work (teachers)." (p. 126)

    I really like the idea of "constructing a system" that "supports" teachers. As Houston points out, that means laws cannot be created without the input and full support of educators who are in the classroom every day.
    Why do we go to school for 6 years or more if we are going to be "second-guessed"? I understand that there are some bad teachers out there, but I also think that most of them started off with the best intentions and passion for learning. I feel that the support is not there to help teachers deal with very difficult situations and professional development can be non-existent so they get burned out and give up on students. Do you think NCLB can really "force" teachers to get better without mutual respect and support for our profession? Federal mandates and high-stakes testing is turning (or keeping) everything into a competition - just like Count talked about in his principles of American education. Now we compare schools and scores and make many good teachers want to leave the profession.

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  12. jessicaMay 18, 2009 at 2:45 PM

    In response to Katherine's post about Rotherman, in fact I too believe it is irresponsible to pour resources into a system that is not working. But the current trend of Charter Schools (and I know that many students attend and teachers teach at charter schools, and I do not mean to offend with this post but..)and sanctioning schools who are not progressing at the prediscribed pace is not an answer. These things exacerbate the current problem. When we take away money from urban districts, there is less money to catch kids up. It seems to me that the very students that NCLB is trying to help are the ones who are hurt the worst.

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  13. jessicaMay 18, 2009 at 2:54 PM

    "But Duncan is also interested in other people's opinions. He's meeting with the heads of the two national teachers unions and, if and when the stimulus passes, he plans to travel the country to gather input from school officials and families about ways to improve the federal testing law. Duncan also says he is in the market for ideas to rename the law." from the Newsweek article posted in the content section. I like this idea, get input from teachers and families. I also loved the u-tube link

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  14. tostrolenckiMay 18, 2009 at 3:31 PM

    I wanted to share this quote since everyone is talking about accountability: "The greater danger we face is that, in our rush to build skills, we undermine our wisdom. Then we will all be left behind" (Noll, p. 129) Every teacher should be held accountable for what he or she teaches to the young minds. However, it's difficult for fairness to be displayed when resources for schools, teachers and students are so uneven. I agree with Jessica earlier when she made the comparison with Bay Village Schools and Cleveland City Schools. There's a huge difference in each city's environment, economics, life style and living. It's not fair for the community as a whole be held against a child who's trying to receive the best education possible despite poverty. As Houston stated in this chapter, 'Accountability systems will work only where there is collaboration and trust between the federal government and schools. The government needs to provide every child the opportunity to an equal education no matter the circumstances of each school because as each child graduates and becomes working adults, they will be equally compared when it comes down to getting a job, so we'd hope it would seem.

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  15. ali elmoreMay 18, 2009 at 3:44 PM

    I agree with Jessica that it is irresponsible to pour resources into a system that is not working. I think it is interesting; however, that Houston claims that the system is in fact, "not broken. It is a well oiled machine doing the wrong thing." (pg. 124) I also like when he says, "Schools haven't failed at their mission. The mission has changed." I have to disagree with the charter school comments though. Because as Dylan says, “The times they are a changing.” Here is the thing of course there are failing charter schools, just as there are failing public schools. There are also charters currently rated excellent under NCLB. Charter schools may “take money away from public schools” but the money that follows that child to the charter school is only a portion of what the public school would receive and the public school now has one less child to provide for. If you are a parent in a failing district and you have the choice to send your child to another school with obvious benefits such as: smaller class sizes, maybe a cleaner, safer environment, higher achievement and so on, wouldn’t you?? I disagree with a lot of the NCLB legislation but the ability to make a choice as to where your send your child, I applaud.

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  16. ali elmoreMay 18, 2009 at 4:01 PM

    I really like the quotations that Jen B. highlights concerning constructing a system that supports the teachers. I feel that NCLB in its current form does anything but. The sixth sin that Houston mentions about leaving out the experts, us , is in my mind the biggest flaw with the legislation, as Jen says we went to school for this why second guess us?? Teachers need to be an active part of the planning process. The constant testing, the performance bonuses, these things take away from authentic teaching time. Many districts place so much emphasis on these tests that the teachers spend much of their time using various books and activities to prepare for them, at the expense of more valuable activities.
    A point I disagree with from Rotherham is where he claims that while standardized tests aren't perfect they are still the best objective way to measure process. (pg. 120) I thik we should move to an assessment portfolio for each child that travels with them from year to year, containing writing samples, various assessments, artwork, reading logs and other valuable items that the child has created.

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  17. tostrolenckiMay 18, 2009 at 4:13 PM

    As it stated in Issue 8, "Everyone in America knew which children were being left behind long before NCLB became a law." (Noll, p. 123) I agree with Jessica and Ali that it is irresponsible to pour resources into a system that is not working. I think we need to get to the bottom of why isn't the system not working thoug? Shouldn't it be? Shouldn't all schools be treated equally so every child has the potential and opportunity to learn? Think back to the beginning of Houston's point, NCLB is full of sins because it has proved itself to be an offense against good education." (Noll, p. 123)Nothing can be designed for one purpose. No two schools are alike, no two teachers are alike. If we think that way we will never be productive and be able to make a change in direction towards education.

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  18. ali elmoreMay 18, 2009 at 4:16 PM

    Katherine: wouldn't it be nice if your example wasn't common? You are absolutely right, I work in Cleveland and over half of the children at my school qualified for similar programs and did not take advantage of them. Is it pure laziness, do they not know any better, hard to say. Perhaps the answer is the government needs to have mandatory classes for parents before they are even allowed to leave the hospital.

    May 18, 2009 4:13 PM

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  19. jessicaMay 18, 2009 at 4:26 PM

    I like Ali's idea about the portfolio, I use them with my kids and it does show improvement. I have to agree however with the need for a standardized test, my problem is can they develop a standardized assessment that is not inherrently biased?

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  20. ali elmoreMay 18, 2009 at 4:31 PM

    I think that it is impossible to treat every school the same because the districts are not the same. The new budget hopefully will give the poorer districts more money than their richer counterparts. With that money hopefully they can start up some programs that will really assist those children that are being looked over and left behind. I think that educating the "lower" kids is only the tip of the iceburg. Many of these kids need dental assistance, they need therapy, they need to be receiving speech or occupational services. And it all seems to revolve around money. I like when Houston says, Stop pretending money doesn't matter. The only people who believe that are people with money." (p. 127)

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  21. tostrolenckiMay 18, 2009 at 4:34 PM

    I completely agree with Ali since her and I work in similar settings in Cleveland. The students there are lazy. They do the bare minimum to get by and sometimes the students think that is asking too much of them to do compared to the districts I used to sub at in Lorain County, where the students were bringing home copies of their school districts AYP's and the parents were having meetings with the school board to come together and discuss ways to improving the districts scores. That's the difference between parenting these days, and well that's a whole other issue in itself.

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  22. tostrolenckiMay 18, 2009 at 4:47 PM

    Just food for thought while we are on the topic NCLB (National Education Association Issue #73)

    Las Vegas story: NCLB rules put top status beyond schools’ reach

    School ratings under NCLB are based on achievement and growth, which means that if student achievement levels in a particular school are high, it is impossible to show significant growth. A school considered "exemplary" one year will revert to the lesser status of "high achieving" the next year even though it still has a high record of student success. To address this concern, Nevada’s state board of education is considering tweaking rules to allow exemplary schools to keep their status as long as there's no drop in student achievement.

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  23. Katherine McGrawMay 18, 2009 at 5:46 PM

    I also like Ali’s idea of the portfolio, and I agree with you that leaving out the experts in the legislation (the 6th sin) is the worst. I think that many of the other sins could be fixed with assistance from the experts. Allowing NCLB to be tweaked and talked over by different experts may lead to some better ideas. Just look at the ideas we are all coming up with on this blog. I did like Rotherham’s statement that “we shouldn’t delay the good while waiting for the perfect” (Noll, 122). We discussed how politics always seems to ignore education during class last week, at least NCLB was an attempt at making a change in education, and there are many good goals in the legislation. All you can do is try something and make changes from there.

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  24. J.K.MatherMay 18, 2009 at 6:37 PM

    I agree with what Jessica stated in her post, and I think with all the charter schools with everything known to man in them, who wants to go to a regular public school and I am product of public and I loved it. I think it taught me tons, it isn't helping when everytime you turn around, there's another charter school and you see downward enrollment in the urban schools where i think education is awesome. I loved working in urban schools, I love working in schools thats why I am a teacher. I agree with Jessica, I don't agree with all the charter schools.

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  25. J.K.MatherMay 18, 2009 at 6:40 PM

    I also feel that it isn't the legistators to blame, everyone's to blame for failure.

    We can't have equality, when were the 'melting pot" as I was taught in elementary school of people, that have different backgrounds, different views, and we've all been taught a democratic way.

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  26. jessicaMay 19, 2009 at 10:19 AM

    Just a thought, perhaps related perhaps not, but certainly just a personal belief. Someone above talked about lazy Cleveland students, I think I truly think that the difference between the students in Avon Lake, or Bay vs. those in Cleveland proper, or Lorain is generational poverty. If you have no concept of how and why education is beneficial... then it will not be valued in the home.

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  27. tom kMay 19, 2009 at 4:45 PM

    Aristotle stated, “That it is unjust to treat unequal things equally.” The question of achieving equity and equality within education has been haunting teachers, parents, students, and yes, lawmakers for years. Can it be done? I don’t know and I don’t know if anyone else has the answer to implement positive change in education. We have lawmakers making laws for us to live by and another set of laws that they live by in education. Lindsey Burke (Heritage Foundation Web Site) surveyed the 111th Congress and found that 44% of the Senate and 36% of the Representatives have children presently, or had children attend private schools in the Nation’s capitol. This is certainly mix message in helping the little guy! What should the little guy do if he/she wants to move their children from unsafe public school to a private or charter school? This year Congress is slowly trying to eliminate The D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program which assists 1700 disadvantaged children to attend private schools in Washington D.C.
    In 2002, the spending towards NCLB was $24.4 million, an increase of 41% over fiscal year 2001. There was a 59% increase in Title Grants to Local Education Agencies. The State and Local government burden on time with just paperwork equaled 6,680,334 hours at a cost of $141 million.
    The Government is not going away and there is effort with certain leadership in House and Senate to eliminate Federal expansion and power by restoring control to the State and Local Government, Governors, parents, and teachers. (Resource, Heritage Foundation Website) {Comment #1 for Issue 8)

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  28. AnonymousMay 19, 2009 at 6:36 PM

    I agree with what a couple of other people said that there should be an accountability factor for teachers. Teachers are in the classroom to get students to learn and motivate them to want to learn. Having said that though, I don't think it's reasonable to expect every teacher to be held accountable for each and everyone of their students in the classroom. As Houston states, "the sad fact is that schools can and should help disadvantaged children-but schools can't do it all." (Noll, 126) Teachers cannot always change the circumstances that children are born into, the best that they can do is to teach that child to the best of their ability.
    Circumstances affect how children learn and those circumstnaces can reflect in the results of the testing assessments outlined in NCLB. I don't think that there is an easy solution to this that the government can simply fix. Without first trying to fix/change the circumstances that some children are growning up in, they will not have the same resources to gaining a good education as others do.

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  29. AnonymousMay 19, 2009 at 6:41 PM

    Also, as for Ali's comment about the portfolios, I completely agree. Some students are just not good at taking tests and the stress and anxiety that they feel over having to take the test could cause them to do even worse. To me, testing is not the only or best way to assess students. Portfolios would be beneneficial because they would show progress that the student has made and also give them an opportunity to display their more creative side and learning in this fashion might be more beneficial to them in this manner. The portfolios make me think of the notion of multiple intelligences, where everyone is has an area of concentration that they are better in than others. Standarized tests do not recognize this and so I think that there is more to assessing how much a student has learned and that does not work by simply testing them.

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  30. tom kMay 20, 2009 at 1:02 PM

    I also like the idea of a portfolio and the student is an artist of education consistently painting a picture of himself/herself as they mature. Education would look like something from the movie and TV series "Fame."
    For all the comments, we need to address the fundamental fact that the federal government has created a monster. The federal government has taken away the freedom of our children and placed that control in the hands of our governmental officials in Washington D.C. According to Dr. Amy Brady (Ashland University) it has been decided by the courts that the way we fund education today is unconstitutional. Guess what? Nothing has changed to resolve that decision, nothing new has been implemented to make funding of public education constitutional. The system keeps on pushing increase tax levies throughout each city and/or district to support the educational needs. The school district keeps on coming back for increase taxes and the wealthy districts will pass them and the urban districts will suffer. School disticts that are successful in passing their levies and continue to seek new levies will eventually reach a breaking point within their communities. They are "returning to the well" to many times without imposing restraint on dealing with the money they alreay have and reducing the overhead and waste in the system. (Comment 2 on Issue 8)

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  31. Jen BMay 20, 2009 at 1:49 PM

    I know that students can appear to be "lazy," but don't you think they still have that deep desire to learn about their world? If only they could focus on that? How do we feel when we are tired? Hungry? Sick? Abused? I don't think any child is truly lazy - it's much too simple of an answer. Maslow's heirarchy of needs - we can't get to the learning/achievement until they have all of their other basic needs met.

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  32. ali elmoreMay 20, 2009 at 3:19 PM

    In response to jjones comments about charters, I am also a product of public education. I support public education, I send my child to a public school, I would like to find a job in a public school. However, I also support the right to choose an alternate school if the public school in your area is failing. Some public schools are just plain unsafe, the class sizes are too large, the teachers are burnt out, the behavior issues too large.. It is a disservice to leave your child in this kind of crisis situation if there is an alternative available. I am for whatever works, if a charter is working for students then it works for me.

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  33. AnonymousMay 20, 2009 at 3:20 PM

    I agree Jen, I think people need to look beyond the surface and that students are not to be considered just lazy. As teachers, we need to find ways to motivate them to want to learn, which can be difficult sometimes especially when they have outside factors weighing in on them even when they are in school. This is where I think it's important, as many others have noted, that teachers need to be involved in the decision-making process and not just left to politics. As Houston says, "those at the federal level do not-and cannot-know better how to educate a child than those working at the child's level." (Noll, 128) Teachers need to be involved in this process in order to create a system that works for all children.

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  34. m_bielsMay 20, 2009 at 3:40 PM

    I agree with Tiffany's first comment about how it is hard for the community to be held accountable for children not being able to pass state test and be educated at the same level when all of their surroundings are not equal in each state. The factors all have to be equal in education for each student in order to judge them on the same level. The funding and resources are not provided for every district, and even the teacher's vary from district to district. I'm willing to bet that a teacher in Bay Village (as Jessica was stating earlier) wakes up every morning excited to go into work and mold young minds and feel good that her children are learning, when a teacher in a city school like Cleveland may not have the same perspective as he/she does in Bay. The students come from different surroundings (in and out of schools), so how is it fair to test everyone equally?

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  35. m_bielsMay 20, 2009 at 3:46 PM

    Houston said that "the sad fact is that schools can and should help disadvantaged children-but schools can't do it all." (Noll, pg.126) I completely agree that teachers should be held accountable for what they teach, but possibly not for every student. I will admit that I have one student that no matter what I teach him, how I teach it to him, or how much I try to make it interesting and fun and motivating, he really could care less and doesn't put much effort into anything. After trying every which way to teach the curriculum to this child, should I still be held accountable if he doesn't put any effort into the state testing in the Spring? He knows it's not going to affect his grade in my class, so his reasoning was "why should I put any effort into it?" As a teacher who truly wants to reach and help every one of her students, this really frustrates me! Maybe if we taught by Holt's view on "womb-to-tomb" education, everything would be different!

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  36. Lana M. FrohmMay 20, 2009 at 6:30 PM

    First I want to say Wow… and Thanks for the info (jjones & jessica) I had no idea that these test were the same for special education students who have learning disabilities. Just from a layman’s perspective that isn’t right.

    To answer David’s question: No I do not think the current system works; however, we do need some type of national standard within education and have some way to measure that the students know these basic facts. Unfortunately, I do not know what these should be or how to implement them into our current system.
    Houston hit the nail on the head in what I believe is the biggest problem with NCLB in sin # 4 “we have actually reduced the time we spend on instruction so that we can increase the time we spend on measuring the results of instruction. To offset this, many schools have chosen to neglect subjects not covered by the test, so that the curriculum has narrowed (p. 127, Noll).
    This has been the case of my step-daughter how came to live with us two years ago. She did not pass the entire subject in the OGT on her first testing. Therefore when she was selecting her classes for this year they told her she dad to take certain courses because she didn’t pass. This for her was very disappointing because she had wanted to go to Ehove and get into the culinary arts program.

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  37. tom kMay 20, 2009 at 8:18 PM

    The national standard of testing is a wild experiment of checking the intelligence of students at all around the same time. And we are to expect that all the students learned the necessary information and pass the tests all around the same time?
    A comment, a comparison from one of our authors in the book states, that no two factories are alike in operation, especially if one factory is more successful than the other. No two schools and no two students are alike and if that is the case why does our government think or expect a huge bell curve of successful scores within a specific period of time. Are we teaching or processing our children? As I continue to read about NCLB, federal control of education, the robotic nature of educating/testing, and our freedoms being slowly taken away from us, the more I like the ideas of Holt and Childress.
    Wait until we have universal health care, if you think our educational system is flawed, just wait. If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it is free.

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  38. KScottMay 21, 2009 at 7:36 AM

    Ali said ealier (much ealier...): "but the money that follows that child to the charter school is only a portion of what the public school would receive." Actually, I don't think this is the case. From what I understand, it's almost the opposite: if a student leaves a school which is not receiving the full amount of state aid per pupil, that school still must provide the full amount to the student's school of choice....

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  39. Lana M. FrohmMay 21, 2009 at 1:36 PM

    Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, creates an unequal society, and does not provide equal opportunities for everyone in society. Sure sounds like NCLB is steering us harder in the direction of becoming socialistic. I’m not against programs to help those who are in poverty but there are several programs now in place that don’t work so well. Why do we need more? Our Country is full of riches to rags stories (Huston gives us Lincoln as an example). I think that people – not the government – need to step up and address their problems and quit looking for a fix from Uncle Sam.

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