Well, after reading these essays I have to say my first reaction is that I wish I could be a fly on the wall during a discussion between these 4 guys....I'll go out on a limb here and say that I think Dewey embraces Progressivism! The main thing I like about him is that in promoting the "new," child-centered approach, he says that this doesn't mean we just get rid of everything in the old approach and adopt "a philosophy which proceeds on the basis of rejection, of sheer opposition" (Noll, p. 6). In other words: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!!
Hutchins believes that "the purpose of education is to improve men" (p. 11) (which I am sure Dewey would agree with--and that they would both include women as well); however, he appears to be a Perennialist--advocating for schools to "supply" a liberal education for all. I like that "for all" part--he specifically says "all men are capable of learning" (p. 14) (of course, so do those who promote standardized testing, but that's another debate...) and that education is not something that gets done to you in your youth and then you're done with it--it's a lifelong process. (Again, I think I hear Dewey agreeing.) I think his main thing is that he opposes Dewey's pragmatism--he's more into the universal, eternal ideas.
I think Adler, too, is a Perennialist. (Of course, knowing that he founded the Great Books program sort of gives it away.) The main attraction I have to his Paideia proposal is that, again, he feels every person, whether they are going to be a college professor, a professional athlete, or a car mechanic, deserves to be exposed to--and wrestle with and internalize--the great ideas of humanity. I think his progression makes sense, although (for me) it's a bit rigid, and I love his idea of teachers as coaches.
Now, Holt...whoa. I agree with much of his criticism of schools--we've all seen and/or experienced much of what he describes. But talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!! I guess if I had to "label" him, I'd say maybe he starts out as a Progressive but ends up in the Postmodern camp...? He does, after all, compare schools to Brave New World and advocates that we stand in opposition to them (p. 29).
So, I guess the question I'd like to throw out for discussion is: Based on their perceived philosophies of education, how would these guys rank the goals of education (from the survey we looked at in class)? (Feel free to just choose one of them to begin with.)
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I am going to begin with Hutchins. He does stress a lot about the “purpose of education is to improve men” (p. 11) and “the individual is the heart of society” (p. 12). He goes on to talk about how “man needs participation in his own government” (p. 12) and that education could be an “effective means of reforming society” (p. 13). All of these ties with education and society would make me rank Citizenship and Community Responsibility, Critical Thinking and Problem Solving, and Social Skills and Work Ethic all as most important for Hutchins. He also states that “philosophy, history, literature, and art give us knowledge” (p. 12), which would place Basic Academic Skills in Core Subjects and The Arts and Literature as the next important goals. He does not address much about Physical or Emotional Health as goals. He does refer to education as a lifelong process, which makes me think Preparation for Skilled Work would come in last.
ReplyDeleteHutchins discusses a "hierarchy of values" (pg. 13) and "giving every citizen a liberal education" (pg. 13). Given his thoughts on those two issues, it would lead me to believe that he would have ranked Critical Thinking and Problem Solving, Basic Academic Skills in Core Subjects, and The Arts and Literature at the top of his list. If you want every man to have a literal education, they need to have a wide range of knowledge, not only based on the core subjects. However, he does talk about the "purpose of education is to improve men" (pg.11) which would then make me think he would have placed Citizenship and Community Responsibility and Emotional Health next. Like Katherine mentioned in her post above, not much is mentioned about Physical Health or Preparation for Skilled Work (although I would think that would go hand-in-hand with "improving men" by getting them ready for skilled employment). So given that thought, I would place Physical Health as the final goal of education.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Hutchins would rank The Arts and Literature as his first educational goal. He states more than once that through an early appreciation of a liberal education that man might wish to further educate himself. He would rank Citizenship and Community Responsibility second, as he indicates that man’s main purpose is to find his place in his society and fufill his destiny. He references Plato, quoting, “States are not made out of stone or wood, but out of the characters of their citizens…” Social Skills and Work Ethic would come next as these are most important in the improvement of men, which Hutchins claims to be the cornerstone of education. Close at the heels of social skills comes Critical Thinking and Problem Solving for what is a man to offer his society without these skills? Emotional Health is also of the utmost importance for a man taking a place in his society, he must be able to make positive choices and possess self confidence. Next, Hutchins would rank Basic Academic Skills in Core Subjects maintaining that while it is important to introduce basic concepts, teachers are not teaching children all they will ever need to know. It is rather, “to give them the habits, ideas and techniques that they need to continue to educate themselves.” Rounding out the end of the list are Physical Health and Preparation for Skilled Work. Hutchins specifically mentions that a man can learn to make a living after he has laid the foundations through liberal education.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Dewey supports the Progressivism views of education he gives a warning not to “abandon too completely the traditional disciplines” (Noll, p3) while incorporating this new approach to education. Therefore, knowing Dewey’s philosophy of education I believe he would rank the goals of education as follows:
ReplyDelete1. Critical Thinking and Problem Solving
2. Social Skills and Work Ethic
3. The Arts and Literature
4. Citizenship and Community Responsibility
5. Emotional Health
6. Physical Health
7. Basic Academic Skills in Core Subjects
8. Preparation for Skilled Work
When looking at the different gentleman and their views of education. I decided to take a closer look at John Holt. He begins his arguement on pg. 25 of the text, it is titled "Escape from Childhood". In reading his passage I feel that Holt is a progressivist, because he states in his first sentance that "young people should have the right to control and direct their own learning (p. 25). I feel that he would rank the goals of education by:
ReplyDelete1. Emotional Health
2. Physical Health
3. Social Skills and Work Ethic
4. Citizenship and Community Responsibility
5. Preparation for Skilled Work
6. Critical Thinking and Problem Solving
7. Basic Academic Skills and Work Ethic
8. The Arts and Literature
After reading Ali's comments I agree. Throughout the Hutchin's passage he summarizes that man needs a liberal education, whether from near or far, to lead a basis for the rest of his life. Although I wonder if Basic Academic Skills higher in the list, rather than lower in the list. A liberal education is also a basis for english, reading, math, science, and history. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteLana, I agree with your list for Dewey. He is certainly a progressivist. He wants the children to learn from past experiences and feels that that is an essential point in your children's lives. I agree that critical thinking and problem solving would be number 1 on his list, only because in order to learn from the past experiences you have to think about the true meaning behind them and how they are going to help you in the future.
ReplyDeleteDewey is very adamant about his thoughts on education and the fact that he believes it deals a lot with experiences. I too like his assessment that one can't just do away with the old way and that it wasn't necessarily all bad. He says "young people in traditional schools do have experiences" (Noll p.8) and the problem is with the quality of the experience that the student has encountered. If the quality of the experience is bad, the student will have no use for it in the future. Experiences need to be "immediately enjoyable since they promote having desirable future experiences." (p.9) Given this, I think that Dewey would rank critical thinking and problem solving as his first goal because he is looking for the student to use their experiences and apply it to their social life. Also, I think he would rank social skills and work ethic pretty high because he is looking to develop the whole self as an individual. Following that I think would be citizenship and community responsiblity, basic academic skills, and the arts and literature, preparation for skilled work, emotional health and physical health.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Lana, mostly in Dewey ranking Critical Thinking and Problem Solving and Social Skills and Work Ethic as the top two. Dewey believes that "experiences provided by schools could be meaningful extensions of the social activities of the learners" (p. 2). The Critical thinking and problem solving goals fit in with his inquiry (progressive) approach.
ReplyDeleteI also found the section interesting on page 6, where he talks about how "experience and education cannot be directly equated to each other". Many of his examples reminded me of my "traditional" schooling, such as, losing the want to learn because of the way in which learning was experienced or associating the learning process with boredom. Dewey stated that those cases where the "quality of the experience" (p. 6) was not high does not directly result with education. I was thinking that it would be possible for that to tie in with Emotional Health as well, since that is what helps decide what your experiences will be like. I would possibly rank Emotional Health a little higher with Dewey.
I agree with jjones that Basic Academic Skills needs to be higher on the list of educational principles according to Hutchins. I placed it ranking second when I was thinking about his views on education. In order to have a liberal education, you need to have all of the core subjects, as well as others that build upon them. I believe that it is the core of any liberal arts program.
ReplyDeleteI suppose you girls are right about Hutchins, Basic Academic Skills should be higher. I thought that Dewey's comments on p.6 were interesting too(the part Katherine mentions) actually that is about the only part of that section I found interesting. That Dewey stuff was a hard read!
ReplyDeleteI'll second that!! I was stressed out while reading Dewey! I re-read about half of it trying to understand it. That's why I chose Hutchins to do, because it made much more sense than Dewey's!! Although I understand what Dewey's view is on education, I found it too confusing while he was trying to debate on experience and education.
ReplyDeleteAs Hutchins focused on "The Basis of Education", I strongly agreed with his statement: "To use his freedom rightly he needs discipline. To live in society he needs the moral virtues. Good moral and intellectual habits are required for the fullest development of the nature of man." (page 12) A person needs to have a strong awareness and foundation of their world around them. Applying themselves was discussed throughout his work. Hutchins focused on learning taking place throughout life, not just as a child. The focal point is on "hierarchy of values". Realizing the task of education is to help us understand it, establish it, and live by it. (page 13) Everyone is capable of learning. I believe Hutchins would rank Critical Thinking and Problem Solving followed by Social Skills and Work Ethic as his top goals. Basic Academic Skills in Core Subjects would follow next because Hutchins talked about improving man as man. Emotional Health and Physical Health was not mentioned by Hutchins but I believe they would fall hand in hand with Citizenship and Community Responsibility because of the need to take on an active role as a citizen leading to Preparation for Skilled Work. I felt this was towards the bottom of the list because as Hutchins would state the man needs to learn as much as he can to apply himself (such as work skills), he needs to master liberal education before moving on.
ReplyDeleteI just finished reading about Adler and Holt. I agree with jjones that Holt would definately list Emotional Health number one. I further agree with the majority of the list. I suppose some of the items may fall higher depending upon the child's interests/desires/demands. I thought Holt was a bit of a madman with some good ideas tangled in. I do agree with him p.28 that teachers do have a lot of power(in many instances too much power...) It is scary,some teachers can be such a positive, wonderful influence, while others can really crush a child's spirit. I did not think I would have much in common with old Adler but I was pleasantly suprised. I totally agree with his concept of teachers serving as discovery aides(p. 22) He states that nothing like column three(p.19) is found in our schools, which is of course typically correct, however one of my favorite teachers of all time, my senior English teacher did incorporate those ideals(which is of course why he was a favorite). I think Adler would rank as follows:
ReplyDelete1.Basic Academic Skills in Core Subjects
2.The Arts and Literature
3.Critical Thinking and Problem Solving
4.Physical Health
5.Social Skills and Work Ethic
6.Prep. for Skilled Work
7.Citizenship
8.Emotional Health
6.
Lana, for the most part, I do agree with the order of Dewey's list you proposed. However, from the reading and background knowledge on Dewey, I personally believe I would rank emotional health higher on the list (such as your 3rd goal). Dewey’s known for the approach to learning through hands on experiences but also for a child being able to make an emotional connection with their experiences and involvements. Dewey is a challenging one to follow especially in his reading when he was bouncing back and forth on experience and education. I still believe you’ve done a nice job interpreting him for the rest of us! =)
ReplyDeleteAfter reading John Holt, I agree that young people should have the right to control and direct their own learning. However, I only believe that to a certain extent. I don't feel the students should have a say on how much of a subject they are being taught because if a child chooses to not learn about a certain subject such as math, how will that prepare that child for the future when you deal with math every day? As I was ranking Holt's goals, I found it difficult to do so. I believe his emphasis would be on Social Skills and Work Ethic meaning they have personal responsibility for themselves and their choices they want to make towards their learning environment. However, I am hesitant to see if they would apply themselves. I would have rather seen a strong emphasis on Critical Thinking and Problem Solving but with the freedom for the child to choose what to learn, again, I am hesitant if the child would learn the ability to interpret information on his or her own.
ReplyDeleteI agree with tostrolencki in that children should have some imput in their education, it would certainly make them more interested in their education. Due to this philosophy, I further agree that it makes it complicated to rank what is important to Holt.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with tostrolencki about John Holt ranking Social Skills and Work Ethic high on his list of goals. I agree with both comments above that children should have more "control and direct their own learning" (p. 25). However, Holt is very extreme on this in my opinion, similar to the others above. With today's video games and computers, I think much of the young people would love to choose to stay home from school, but whether they would take responsibility and do any learning I'm not sure. What Holt does not take into account is the differing maturity levels of young people. However, based on Holt's ideas I also think he would rank Emotional Health to the top of his list, because he is very concerned about young people having the same rights as adults, that being "the right to decide what goes on in our minds" (p. 26).
ReplyDeleteAfter reading Hutchins, I agree with Katherine's listing of how Hutchins would rank the goals. Citizenship and community responsibility would come first because he believes that "the individual is the heart of society" (Noll p.12) and that the way to improve society is through "the improvement of the individuals who compose it."(p.12) The individual plays the role in society and they need to continue to learn and improve so as to improve society. To him, the role of a citizen is participating in society as an intellectual individual. Hutchins says, "A republic can maintain justice, peace, freedom, and order only by the exercise of intelligence."(p.14)
ReplyDeleteHis next goal would be critical thinking and problem solving. He states "education deals with the intellectual powers of men" (p.12) which signifies that learning to be able to think critically will not only help men in school, but also in society. I would place the arts and literature and basic academic skills in core subjects next because he believes "philosphy, history, literature and art give us knowledge, and significant knowledge, on the most significant issues." (p.12) These skills are still important to learn because it serves as a basis for improving men and guiding them to continue with their education their whole lives. Hutchins whole outlook is the idea that people need to continue to educate themselves and learning never stops, it is continuous, which I agree with. Also, I think Hutchins would place preparation for skilled work last on his list of goals because he says "it makes no difference how they are to earn their living or what their special interests or aptitudes may be."(p.13) After they have had a good liberal education, they can then use what they have learned and apply it to their occupation or work. It doesn't matter what the skill is, but the fact that what they have learned in school can be used to be successful in that position.
I agree as well with what tostrolencki wrote about Holt in that young people should have the right to control and direct their own learning. I don't think I necessarily believe they should have total control however because they need to have some guidance to direct them. I feel more that they should be active participants in the learning process and have some input as to their learning experiences within the classroom. As for ranking his goals, I disagree a little with tostrolencki. I would place critical thinking high on his list because he says "a person's freedom of learning is part of his freedom thought"(p.25) which leads me to think that he wants students to be able to think for themselves and learn in this manner. Emotional health and physical would also be high on his list because of the story he recalls about his friend's son (p.27) and how his experience with a bad teacher caused him to spiral downward academically and emotionally.
ReplyDeleteAs for Adler, I believe his goals would differ greatly from Holt. His top ones would be basic academic skills, critical thinking, and citizenship and community responsiblity. The role of the school is to prepare students. He says "basic schooling must do everything it can to make them good citizens" and "basic schooling must prepare them for earning a living, but not by training them."(p.19) I agree with Adler's thinking that school should teach the basics, but in doing so, prepare students for life. The skills that they learn in school will assist them with what they do afterwords, therefore, I think he would also place critical thinking high on his list, because that is a tool that students will use continuously in life.
I would like to add something about Hutchins. Tostrolencki listed critical thinking and social skills as 1 and 2 but I believe that he would have chosen Basic Academic Skills in Core Subjects as #1 then followed by Tostrolencki # 1 and 2. If you read further down on page 13 it says “The object of liberal education in youth is not to teach the young all they will ever need to know. It is to give them the habits, ideas, and techniques that they will need to continue to educate themselves.” The way I took this was that he wants to create a standardized base of education for all “men” to have thereby allowing them to take it and turn it into what they want.
ReplyDeleteI agree with mbeils, I had a difficult time reading Dewey and some of the other material. I thought it was just the time of night I was reading the material.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everyone so far, I also had a difficult time reading John Dewey. With Dewey being the first reading, I ended up splitting up the readings two one day, and two the next.
ReplyDeleteI finally got done reading Issues 2 and I can see that Adler is true Perennialist. I would agree with Ali listing of his goals. I do have to say I did like his point of understanding there are inequalities in all and this needs to be addressed. I think this belief must have been the bases of the head start program.
ReplyDeleteAlso I would like to throw my two cents worth in on Holt. When reading his response and doing a bit of research on Holt I believe he is a Psotmodernist (http://www.holtgws.com/). He seems to be one of the forefathers of the Homeschooling movement. I believe Holt is an agent for social change in regards to education.
Ranking Hutchins/Goal Areas
ReplyDeleteHutchins would probably only consider two Goal Areas out of the eight. He would place Basic Academic Skills in Core Subjects as number one and Critical Thinking and Problem Solving as number two. Hutchins would consider Preparation for Skilled Work as ranking third, Social Skills and Work Ethic as fourth and maybe Citizenship and Community Responsibility fifth in total ranking.
There would be no consideration for Physical and Emotional Health, let alone the Arts in his universe of higher education. Health and the Arts would be thrown out with the football players and the wrestlers in educating the whole man. Perennialists like Hutchins claim that our greatest failure in contemporary American education is our retreat from pure reason and rigorous intellectual discipline. The aim of an educational system is the development of the intellectual powers of a man and try to train the intellect. (internet source on educational theory)
Holt
ReplyDeleteI believe Holt would place critical thinking and problem solving at the top of his list. He wants children to be able to think for themselves, not brainwashed by teachers and textbooks. I think his second goal would be emotional health. He feels very strongly that schools are teaching children to compare themselves to others and compete, and end up feeling powerless. Instead, I believe Holt would say that education should be about developing self-confidence, respect for others, resisting peer pressure and engaging in responsible personal behavior. I have to agree with him that I'm not sure schools are doing a very good job when it comes to teaching students emotional intelligence. Holt's third goal would probably be social skills and work ethic. He believes that all children have the right to choose what they want to learn. I think he would say that with strong critical thinking, problem solving, emotional, and social skills, along with a good work ethic, students can learn anything. Therefore, they must learn those things first and then apply those skills to basic academics, the arts, and preparation for skilled work. My interpretation of Holt is that he believes children are naturally curious and will learn what they need to learn when given choices and power over their own learning.
I agree that Dewey was very hard to read. I like what he stands for, but I feel like I had to dissect every sentence to understand him! I like how Adler talks about teachers as coaches and that students must learn by doing. I know that I missed most of the discussion because I posted instead of commented, but if anyone is still listening...
ReplyDeleteI was reading through your comments again and I really agree with Ali's comment about children having more control over their learning. I agree that if they did have more control, they would be much more engaged and interested. I feel if we gave more choices and power to the students, the dropout rate would most definitely decrease and students would probably like school a lot more. I hate when I hear students saying that they hate school! I wish they were excited to learn and felt better about themselves as learners.
ReplyDeleteIn John Dewey’s writings my pedagogic creed he states the following:
ReplyDeleteI believe that the moral education centers upon this conception of the school as a mode of social life, that the best and deepest moral training is precisely that which one gets through having to enter into proper relations with others in a unity of work and thought. The present educational systems, so far as they destroy or neglect this unity, render it difficult or impossible to get any genuine, regular moral training.
This makes me believe that he felt that American schools are falling down in the area of Social Skills and Work Ethic. I think he would rank this number 1.
2. Emotional Health
3. Critical Thinking and Problem Solving
4. Citizenship and Community Responsibility
5. Basic Academic Skills
6. Physical Health
7. The Arts and Literature
8. Preparation for skilled Work
John Dewey stated that,” I believe that education, therefore, is a process of living and not a preparation for future living. I believe that the school must represent present life-life as real and vital to the child as that which he carries on in the home, in the neighborhood, or on the playground.”
He emphasized that education is a blend of the social and the academic.
It is solely my opinion however, that John Dewey could not have foreseen what the American family would become in the year 2009. It seems that the social and moral fabric has broken down society has changed radically. The school systems in theory especially in middle schools when children are undergoing radical changes and defining themselves are not providing a whole education that balances social obligations with academic endeavors. In today’s world of high stakes testing the social aspect of education which John Dewey found so important has fallen by the wayside, and has been replaced with teaching to the test. He believed in child centered learning that was applicable to real life…. Learning fractions by making a cake, service learning projects to cite two examples.
First I figured it out.. feeling so savvy. However, also feeling like Dewey is what is missing from the educational process. I know that my opinions are colored by what I teach, it is my only reference. He seems to emphasize the social aspect of education. My students lack the social aspect of education, because they are housed in a resource room for the entire day. We eat lunch in our room and only escape, to go to one half hour of music, which they have together... no social interactions. They never have the opportunity for social growth, and this is an area where they are lacking entirely. They do not see how other people... students peers live, work, study. Maybe this is why I tend to see Dewey's points as important. I don't know of an era in education when these theories were put into practice on a wide scale scope.
ReplyDeleteOne other aspect that doesn't seem to be discussed, unless I missed something, which is entirely possible is that not all students are capable of "greatness." Or maybe better said is each individual's excellence is relative. I think that the forgotten kids, those relegated to the back burner are the ones that could actually be helped by making education more individualized and applicable to their real life capabilities and interests. Just an observation, albeit a bit off topic
ReplyDeleteJessica--I don't think your observation is off-topic at all--I think it's very relevant. I agree that each individual's excellence is relative--I think excellence is achieving your potential to the highest degree possible. I also think, though, that we don't always know our students' true potential--nor do they know it themselves. Teacher expectations are a determining factor in what/whether students achieve. (Check out Rosenthal and Jacobson--"Pygmalion in the Classroom" study, 1968.) Teachers are told to have high but "realistic" expectations for their students. While I see the danger of frustrating students by expecting "too much," I believe we usually severely underestimate what students can do. I have seen it. I have had students just blow me away with performance/products I would have never have imagined them capable of. I have had colleagues tell me "S/He can't do that," only to be proven spectacularly wrong. I know it's a fine line...I feel we most often err on the side that limits our students' achievement. (And I don't think that any of the educational theories discussed necessarily rules out this perspective.)
ReplyDeleteI also agree with you (and so does Counts, obviously) that we have yet to see Dewey's philosophy implemented on a wide scale.
Holt's ideas relating to education and empowering children with little weight from their parents could be applied in a fantasy world. My question is, what happens to Holt's children when they become adults? Would these "adults" empowered as "children," as mature, decision making individuals (in Holt's eyes) would embrace and apply the same logic and teachings of Holt to their own children as young and growing parents for eighteen years of schooling?
ReplyDeleteIn this day and age, Holt's ideas and theories could bevery dangerous for our chilren today. It would be like the "imates running the asylum." Okay, I might be twisted because I am a parent of a almost 20 year old and looking back he had much more freedoms then I did growing up. With the advance in technology, cell phone, computers, internet, texting, instant message, etc., he grew up faster and lost his innocence quicker compared to teenagers 20 to 30 years ago.
Maybe Holt's ideas are slowly being implemented outside of the school walls by others that are not in the education field
I agree that we often underestimate our students, sometimes they don't even realize what they are capable of achieving until they are challenged. I also had to laugh a little about Tom's post because... sometimes the inmates do run the asylum.
ReplyDelete